MARRIAGE CEREMONIES AND HOUSE CHURCH ==================================== From: AB Subject: HCDL: Marriages To: hcdl@shore.net Well, folks, As a new hc'er (not yet fully formed) I've had one "pressing question" and this seems to be the place to ask it: What do you do about marriages? I mean, who performs the legal ceremony? In Canada, a Justice of the Peace may NOT perform a religious ceremony and a licensed minister (licensed by a recognized denomination) must be present. When I worked with the Natives, this was always a big headache! They have lots of "pastors" but few legitimate, licensed ministers (some with license that wasn't current, etc.). More than one wedding was performed then found out not legal in Canada! Yikes! Let's see what others do with this one! In Jesus, AB ____________________ From: CD To: hcdl@shore.net Subject: Re: HCDL: Marriages > From: AB > To: hcdl@shore.net > Subject: HCDL: Marriages > > Well, folks, > As a new hc'er (not yet fully formed) I've had one "pressing > question" and this seems to be the place to ask it: What do you do > about marriages? I mean, who performs the legal ceremony? In > Canada, a Justice of the Peace may NOT perform a religious ceremony > and a licensed minister (licensed by a recognized denomination) must > be present. When I worked with the Natives, this was always a big > headache! They have lots of "pastors" but few legitimate, licensed > ministers (some with license that wasn't current, etc.). More than > one wedding was performed then found out not legal in Canada! > Yikes! > > Let's see what others do with this one! > > In Jesus, > AB This is what I believe to be one of the reasons for licensing. It does not make you any more legitimate. "Pastor" is a call of God, not a man made license. Their are places here in the states that will license. Every home church needs at least one person with credentials. Getting into hospitals, prisons, and performing weddings are at least three reasons I can think of where a license is helpful. ____________________ From: MN Subject: HCDL: Licensing & New Home Church in GA To: hcdl@shore.net As far as licensing goes (for doing legal marriages, etc.) there are a few groups around that give legal 'licenses'. One is the Universal Life Church (ULC). They will do it, even having where you can get ordained/licensed over the Internet for free(do a w eb search for it). Also the American Home Church Association does it, but I don't know the details, but I do believe their is a 'charge' for it. Disclaimer: I am just providing information, not advocating ANY of the aboves beliefs or convictions. Also, some states (Florida I believe), state that if two or more people come to you, wanting to be married, and think you are a spiritual person, etc., then you can do it. You and those two people have effectively become a 'church'. Make sure to check with your appropriate county/state marriage license department for all the details. In GA, for instance, you must be a licensed/ordained member of the clergy. One could simply obtain a 'generic' licensing form (available at any Christia n Bookstore) and gathering together the elders, ordain the person. Also, I am in the beginnings of starting a home church at my home in Mableton, GA. If anyone is interested in fellowshiping with us, please e-mail me. In Christ, MN ____________________ From: OP To: Subject: Re: HCDL: Marriages > ministers (some with license that wasn't current, etc.). More than > one wedding was performed then found out not legal in Canada! > Yikes! > > Let's see what others do with this one! > > In Jesus, > AB > I would put a real stick in the fire, this should be a real test of spiritual maturity and weather or not the answers are based on doctrine or variant philosophies. So... in response to the question.... here is a question.... 1. What does God require for someone to be married? 2. If someone came in who claimed to be married, but did not have the governments approval.... are they married? Would I reject them as adulterers on this basis? My wife and I believe you should let a justice Perform the legal ceremony and then (or before) if you believe it is right, have a brother perform a ceremony to commemorate your dedication to one another. These are some questions I already have along the same subject... curious what others have thought about. ----------------------------------- OP ----------------------------------- ____________________ From: QR To: hcdl@shore.net Subject: HCDL: Marriage Any of the marriages that have taken place among the students who are part of the HCs at Fuller have been taken by pastors. Usually because they are friends of the couple, or because the couple marries out of state at their 'home' church. QR ____________________ Subject: Re: HCDL: Marriages From: ST To: >In >> Canada, a Justice of the Peace may NOT perform a religious ceremony >> and a licensed minister (licensed by a recognized denomination) must >> be present. > > This is what I believe to be one of the reasons for licensing. It does >not make you any more legitimate. "Pastor" is a call of God, not a man made >license. > Their are places here in the states that will license. Every home church >needs at least one person with credentials. Getting into hospitals, >prisons, and performing weddings are at least three reasons I can think of >where a license is helpful. > You Canadians have it rough. No legally certified person is required to marry a couple in Georgia. I am certainly glad that this is the case, as I could not in good conscience become certified by any governing body as a worker for God, and I couldn't ask anyone else to do so. It would be rather a sticky position if this were required for marriage. But in Texas, when I was married, I believed that a minister was required for marriage. It didn't turn out to be a big bother, though. I went and found one, plunked down the bucks and let the government and him think they had done something important for me. That they arrogate themselves to that position is annoying to me, but not terribly surprising. We have had three weddings, only one was purely sans J-o-P, but it is perfectly legal. ST ____________________ From: UV To: "'hcdl@shore.net'" Subject: RE: HCDL: Marriages I was married in Texas while participating in what could pass as a home church. Our two "elders" both participated in the ceremony, and I don't think they were "officially" ordained or licensed ministers. Texas law at that time ('79) required that a "minister" perform the ceremony, but their definition of a "minister" was surprisingly loose, and included anyone that considered himself a "minister", or even vaguely religious! The bottom line was that just about anyone could legally perform the ceremony- although it did have to be duly witnessed, recorded, and filed to be legal according to the state. (Unfortunately our best man lost the paperwork, but that's another story!) We're too new at homechurching this time around to have gone through any recent marriages. Regards, UV ____________________ From: EF To: "'hcdl@shore.net'" Subject: HCDL: Marriages UV wrote: > Texas law at that time ('79) required that a "minister" perform the > ceremony, but their definition of a "minister" was surprisingly loose, and > included anyone that considered himself a "minister", or even vaguely > religious! The bottom line was that just about anyone could legally > perform the ceremony- although it did have to be duly witnessed, recorded, > and filed to be legal according to the state. I think that's the case in Massachusetts, too. (Of course, I *am* a lawyer, and you'd think I'd *know*, but I don't.) At Salem Community Church, our current practice is to ordain someone for the specific purpose of performing the wedding ceremony. As far as I know, the state (actually, the Commonwealth) thinks it's okay. I know that, of the SCC people on this list, IJ and WX and YZ (and maybe others, but I don't remember now) have performed marriages, so perhaps they could speak to this. EF ____________________ From: GH To: hcdl@shore.net Subject: Re: HCDL: Marriages Hello all, Go get the civil ceremony to satisfy the state, then get together as a hc afterward and have a celebration of marriage before The Lord together. As long as you know which one really mattered what's the diff? Love, GH ____________________ From: BC To: hcdl@shore.net Subject: HCDL: Marriage We have 2 people, associated with Canberra Home Churches, who are registered with the government as marriage celebrants and will do hc marriages for us. We are lucky in that way. BC ____________________ From: KL To: hcdl@shore.net Subject: Re: HCDL: Marriages OP wrote: > 1. What does God require for someone to be married? > 2. If someone came in who claimed to be married, but did not have the > governments approval.... are they married? Would I reject them as > adulterers on this basis? In a certain tribe in the Amazon forest, if a man brings a chicken to a single woman to prepare it and cook it, and she does so, they are married. If they stand in front of the missionary in formals and repeat phrases, they are not married, just uncomfortable. I see God holding governments in authority over people, including believers, with few exceptions. The "piece of paper" does matter to me (and the chicken to Nmbutuu). I would not be comfortable subjecting my wife, my Lord, or myself to the legitimate public claim of immorality. The world cannot see our hearts, just our actions. KL ____________________ To: hcdl@shore.net Subject: Re: HCDL: Marriages From: DE Hi everyone, In our house churches some couples have been ordained. They were ordained by a separate Christian ministry organization we were active with. Some were ordained as elders and some as pastors, however each were able to " marry 'em & bury 'em" (per the ordination paper) In Texas, the laws fluctuate fairly rapidly having checked and performed several marriages in the community. (not just for HC's) In Killeen TX where I am, are tons of military folk wanting to get married and many do not have a "church" home or are thousands of miles from home. They don't have relatives locally and really don't want to go to the justice of the peace. There is a nice place here called "The Wedding Cottage" where I have performed several weddings. Our HC group also used the facility to have a wedding. (it's not a las vegas style place) People I have come in contact here are usually looking for a Christian ceremony and a pastor, so I am glad to be able to help. I look at it as ministry because I can share with the couple and talk about marriage etc. I have seen several good suggestions on this thread , but I think it is important to find out what is legal in each state. Chris' suggestion to have a justice of the peace do the ceremony first, is sure to be the most obvious way to be legal. But whatever you do, do it as unto the Lord, in the Name of Jesus and in Love. Signed after 19 years of marital bliss (first by a JP, then renewed in church on the 10th anniversary), DE ____________________ From: FG To: "'HCDL'" Subject: HCDL: Marriages My husband and my marriage were interesting for this topic. My future (and present) father-in-law is an Episcopal priest. We wanted him to perform the ceremony, but I had a very strong desire to legitimize my home church experience, and have it to be part of the ceremony. This caused much discussion between my fiance and me. What came of this was interesting. We found in the Episcopal prayer book a scaled down version of the service that was very loose. We asked my father-in-law, and one of the elders (before the de-eldering) at SCC to perform the ceremony together. Afterwards, both sets of friends from our respective churches thought that we had done the ceremony in their way-but it turned out to be a unique blend of both. This has come to truly symbolize my marriage, as many things have evolved this way. It matters that it is legal for many reasons, including buying property, etc. It seems like it would be a good idea for all home churches to have a "designated" minister for official functions. FG ____________________ From: IJ To: hcdl@shore.net Subject: HCDL: Marriages Dear HCDL, >>> EF wrote: At Salem Community Church, our current practice is to ordain someone for the specific purpose of performing the wedding ceremony. As far as I know, the state (actually, the Commonwealth) thinks it's okay. I know that, of the SCC people on this list, IJ, WX and YZ (and maybe others, but I don't remember now) have performed marriages, so perhaps they could speak to this. >>> One of the good things about the separation of church and state in the US is that many states take a pretty hands-off approach to these things. I was originally ordained in Ohio, which had stricter rules than does Massachusetts. We ordained WX and YZ to perform theirs in Florida and the rules were a bit different there, too, as I recall. You should definitely check your local listings. As far as how SCC has done this . . . . At the beginning, those of us who had "legacy" ordinations did the things that required them. I now think that was largely mental laziness on our part. Our current practice is (in my opinion) much better: we "ordain" people to tasks, like a specific marriage, rather than to positions with certain prerogatives, like preforming any old marriage. We will, probably sooner rather than later now, have to learn how to do the "bury" part of this. We've been good at corporate avoidance of the issue up to now, but that probably won't last forever. Regards, IJ ____________________ From: AB Subject: HCDL: Re: Marriages To: hcdl@shore.net Thanks to all who have contributed to answering my question regarding how to handle "marriages" with the homechurch. I think the answer is best to find out what is legal in each state, or province or country and work within the frame work of what is legal. I don't think that "nonlegal" marriages are right, so what ever way you have to go to make it legal--that's what you do. I did receive assurance from the Lord that if He is calling us to this mode (homechurch) then He has made a way through the legal tangle. I was reminded of something the Lord called me a few months ago and will toss it into the ring to see if anyone else wants to apply this name: "Licensed Worker". Now, I know the Lord was referring to my *spiritual* license to work in His kingdom, but I was just thinking that instead of calling someone a "minister" or "licensed minister" or "pastor"--if they have the legal authority in a given area, maybe they should be called a "licensed worker". Just a thought. In God we trust, AB ____________________ From: HI To: hcdl@shore.net Subject: HCDL: Re: Marriage Greetings to all, The subject of marriage in HC's is an important issue. I appreciate the several responses already presented on the subject. I have been part of house churches in New York State and now in North Carolina and have performed marriages in both states. I fully agree that one should check out the state and/or local laws that might affect the 'legality' of any marriage. After all, the married couple will have to live under the laws of the State. I have no 'credentials' other than being recognized by the local body as an elder for the purpose of performing a specific marriage. I am not the 'marrying elder'. If a couple asked another of the 'elders' to marry them, he (so far its been men only) could. In New York, the authorities stated that if the local body (they probably said congregation) recognized you as a leader then it was legal to proceed. We (different elders) married quite a few couples in our body. Here in North Carolina, the authorities first said that if one was able to 'offer the sacraments' then one could marry! I asked if the state was prepared to define 'sacraments' and was quickly told essentially the same thing as New York - If the body recognizes you as having the authority, then they would too. Obviously, the couple was responsible to meet all the legal requirements in advance, blood tests, license, etc., but we married them and provided the required witnesses, and filed the papers the next day. I urge all HC leaders to stay as far away from Civil Authority restraints, ie; incorporating, licensing of leadership, etc. as possible without breaking any laws, of course. I further urge staying away from pseudo-religious groups providing questionable documents. In New York, we also had two funeral services led by another of our elders (one was for my dad). I don't look forward to that experience - but God will provide the grace when needed - of that I am certain. Let's hear others experiences and thoughts. With His Love, HI ____________________ From: MN Subject: HCDL: Re: Marriages To: hcdl@shore.net > I urge all HC leaders to stay as far away from Civil > Authority restraints, ie; incorporating, licensing of > leadership, etc. as possible without breaking any laws, of > course. I further urge staying away from pseudo-religious > groups providing questionable documents. I would have to agree with DE on this. I mentioned in the post I placed earlier that I didn't agree with the 'pseudo-religious' groups doctrines, but it was an option. We should 'separate' ourselved from those things which are not of Christ, which these groups are clearly 'not of Christ'. I did like the term 'Licensed Worker' though :) I think for the most part (I have a sheet around here somewhere) that most states have it so that if your church/assembly recognizes you as an authority, then you can do the marriage. It is basically the same thing here in GA. A few states are restrictive, requiring you to register yourself with the state to get an 'ID number', but most aren't. I would also suggest for legal purposes keeping a record of who you married, or having the church itself keep the record of the marriage, the now-married party, and the person who performed the marriage, just for legality. In Christ, MN eof -- Last updated 12/28/97