HOME SCHOOLING AND HOUSE CHURCHES ================================= Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 08:12:19 -0400 From: Hal Miller To: hcdl@shore.net Subject: Home Schooling and House Churches -Reply Garner B. and HCDL, This is a topic I'd like to discuss (since two of the families in our home church also home school and I think there is a natural affinity betwixt the two in some ways . . . and some antipathies). However, I couldn't sort out your own ideas about the matter in your post. (Sorry, if they were there, I couldn't extract them from the citations; my fault, but if you cou= ld help me out . . .) Could you please post a summary of your own thinkin' on home schooling and home churching? For myself, I've been surprised to find that these currents haven't interacted more than they have. And I'd like to know whether my experience is just too limited or whether other people have noticed the similarities and wondered at the lack of cross-interest. Regards, Hal (progn (defvar *.signature* (list =09"Hal" "Miller" =09"TASC" =09"55 Walkers Brook Dr., Reading, MA 01867" =09"(617) 942-2000, X2958" =09"Fax: (617) 942-7100" =09"hmiller@tasc.com")) (pop *.signature*)) ******************** Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 06:52:51 -0700 From: Dan Mayhew To: hcdl@shore.net Subject: Re: Home Schooling and House Churches -Reply Hal and Garner- Hal Miller wrote: > Could you please post a summary of your own thinkin' on home > schooling and home churching? For myself, I've been surprised to find > that these currents haven't interacted more than they have. And I'd like = to > know whether my experience is just too limited or whether other people > have noticed the similarities and wondered at the lack of cross-interest. Several of the folks in the community of home fellowships here are home=20 schooling. Some of those have formed a co-op school where the parents=20 share the teaching responsibility. Last year that co-op adventure was at=20 our place, this year at another house. I can't say that the home school=20 is a dominant part of our thinking, but it fits well into the pattern of=20 our life together. I know of some home fellowships that seem as drawn=20 together by their schooling style as their faith convictions. I have some= =20 misgivings about that. Of course I have misgivings about placing too much= =20 emphasis on our meeting style (house church) as well, but I also think=20 it's possible to keep all of that balanced.=20 =09I'll add other thoughts if they occur to me.=20 Shalom! Dan Mayhew The Summit Fellowships Portland, Or. ******************** From: "McBride-Luman, Kevin (G) HIST" To: hcdl Cc: Marian Subject: Home Schooling & House Church Date: Tue, 30 Apr 96 09:03:00 PDT I too see possible affinities and conflicts between Home Schooling and Hous= e=20 Church. =20 My biggest concern with Home Schooling is that much of the rhetoric that I= =20 have heard in support of it is along the lines of withdrawing from the worl= d=20 out of fear; fear of the contamination of our children from evil, secular= =20 ideas. I don't share this fear. In fact, I always want to ask when and ho= w=20 the child is going to learn about the world as it is? When will they be=20 allowed to face the challenges that are out there? =20 In my experience with a small private Christian school, we were taught what= =20 we were to believe and what all the right answers were ("orthodox"=20 conservative evangelical doctrine... like Josh McDowell's "Evidence that=20 Demands a Verdict). The problem was that for the most part we were being= =20 given answers to answers to the questions no one was asking. When I began t= o=20 face the questions that people were really asking (after K-12 and my B.A.= =20 from Christian Schools), I had no answers. I can handle not having the=20 answers, but there was no good reason for having sheltered me from the real= =20 questions for so long. The questions were all new and quite disturbing.=20 Another big concern also comes from the rhetoric that I have heard. There = is=20 plenty of rhetoric out there that the only Christian way to raise your kids= =20 is in a home school. This becomes the only right way to do it. It is a si= n=20 (of negligence and irresponsibility) to send your kids to public school, an= d=20 a private Christian school is not good enough either. =20 I am sure that there are plenty of people out there who are home-schooling= =20 their kids for better and more healthy reasons. At this point, Marian and = I=20 plan to send our kids to public schools. We've thought about it alot and w= e=20 have very strong reasons. But I am quite sure we will think through it all= =20 again when we do have kids, and when they get close to school age. Kevin J. McBride-Luman ******************** Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 12:31:24 -0400 (EDT) From: trd@petsparc.mc.duke.edu (Tim DeGrado) Subject: Re: Home Schooling & House Church To: hcdl@shore.net If it weren't for the opportunities to reach out and touch the lives of people unlike ourselves (class and race), we would probably be homeschooling our children. We have 2 children in elementary=20 school. Although we are so-far pleased with the academics, this hasn't been a critical factor. Neither has the christian/nonchristian teaching issue. We just believe that the Lord wants us to have relationships in this particular area of our world and we want to be faithful to His guidance. This is not to say doing otherwise is any less godly. We are taking it year by year and being careful to monitor =20 how our children are being influenced. They are definitely "in the world" and we are encouraging them toward being "not of the world". =20 As far as the exposure to certain questions (Kevin's post), I think our children need to be free to question and hear other's questions no matter what kind of schooling they're in. There may be a temptation to form a cultural enclave in the homechurching and homeschooling venue that discourages a broader exposure of thought and culture. -Tim DeGrado ******************** From: OIKOSKIRK@aol.com Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 20:08:40 -0400 To: hcdl@shore.net Subject: Schooling ( From Lori ) To all, I have enjoyed the conversation on Home Schooling and love to discuss any subject concerning the great gift that God has given us, our children. Bravo, Kevin and Tim. I agree with much of what you said. Chris and I take our responsibility as parents with much fear and trembling(in the biblical sense). Since we began having our children, we have prayed and sought the Lord as to how we should educate them. Neither = of us was decided as to home school, Christian school, or public school. We started seeking the Lord from early in infancy to show us what road we shou= ld take concerning education for each of them. Each child has a different personality and so each one should be reevaluated when it comes to schoolin= g. =20 Our oldest, Amanda(who is now almost 12), was telling us long stories and singing songs by 18 months. She was always bubbling over with exciteme= nt and personality. Amanda spent most of her early years at college with Chris(while I worked). She learned to relate not only to the professor's children, but mostly to the other students on campus. She was a light in a sometimes very dark place. She would go up to people kissing and ask them "Why are you doing that, you're not married?". She would rebuke the girls = in the lounge when they watched soap operas. Even at 2 or 3 years old she kne= w how to let her light shine so before men. When she reached the school age, after much prayer and consideration we felt we were to send her to public school. We did much of this on faith as we had just moved to a new community. All I can say is that God is faithful if you seek Him and follow His leading. We soon found out that her teacher was not only wonderfully gifte= d, but also a Christian. Amanda blossomed in this enviroment and learned how = to respect not only Chris and I, but others whom were teaching her. She also had an interesting effect on those around her.=20 At Halloween(the dreaded holiday by most of us) she taught all the kids a n= ew song. Instead of singing, "One little, two little, three little witches.....etc", Amanda taught all the kids in her class to sing, "One little, two little, three little angels, .....etc.". The teacher and everyone around got a real laugh out of it, but we knew it meant more. =20 To this point both of our daughters(Rebecca is almost 8) have had wonderful experiences in public school. Not that we haven't had to discuss many subjects, but I feel that honesty and truthfulness are important in an= y relationship(not hiding and being embarrassed over things). We have prayed every year for God to direct us to the right teacher and since in our area you can request a teacher we have ask God to lead us to the right one. Not the Christian one, not the holiest one, but the right one. We have found that almost every year God has chosen to bless us with a Christian teacher for both girls. Not perfect teachers, but ones who care about the children= 's interest first. Both of our girls are outgoing, go-getters. Rebecca is a social butterfly, as I say. They are both involved in sports, Girl Scouts, after school club= s, and have many, many friends, some Christian, some not. We have not found that public school has harmed them in any way, but helped them to see the world realisticly. To learn that they should be thankful for what they hav= e and share what they have with others. Chris and I see how God is using the= m as disciples, to disciple even at their young ages. =20 For those of you out there who are torn, I understand your frustration= s. Please feel free to ask any questions. I pray that God will reveal to you which path to take. I realize that there are some children that will not d= o as well in public schools. I realize that we live in a small, conservative community( around 10,000) who promote abstinence based education and some o= f you might not be so blessed. If not, open your heart up to the Father and ask for help and you will receive it. =20 For Chris and I it has become a conviction of the heart. We see how much our children light their classrooms and how could we take that light away from the other children and teachers. If God wants them there, we can= 't let our fears keep them from it. =20 For those of you who know you're children should be in public school, let me give you a piece of advice. Something can't be changed unless someo= ne speaks up and is willing to change it. Chris and I are in our children's schools weekly and sometimes more than that. If we don't agree with something, we talk to the teacher. If we don't agree with something anothe= r teacher is doing we talk to the principal. And we do get results. In fact they actually call us "the heat seeking parents", you know like the missile= s. We usually find that they are hungry for parents who are concerned and wa= nt our input. It may not work the same with you, but you don't know if you don't try. We have found that a key to all this is relationship. We have good relationships with our children. We have actual conversations with them every day, and ask them about what is going on in school and all other area= s of their lives. We also share the supper table nearly every night. Realizing that Jesus didn't have alot of meetings; He had alot of meals. Because of these concious efforts to maintain our parental relationship we are seldom taken by surprise. I hope that his wasn't too long. If anyone would like to communicate = on this issue, I would love to hear your stories. All my love, Lori ******************** From: Andrew.Carmichael@asu.edu Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 19:31:16 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: Home Schooling & House Church To: hcdl@shore.net > My biggest concern with Home Schooling is that much of the rhetoric that = I=20 > have heard in support of it is along the lines of withdrawing from the wo= rld=20 > out of fear; fear of the contamination of our children from evil, secular= =20 > ideas. I don't share this fear. In fact, I always want to ask when and = how=20 > the child is going to learn about the world as it is? When will they be= =20 > allowed to face the challenges that are out there? =20 This too is one of my primary questions about home-schooling. Children=20 cannot remain in a protected environment forever. They must eventually=20 confront the difficulties of the non-Christian world. Do we best prepare= =20 them for that by teaching them at home or by assisting them and guiding=20 them through public education. I don't claim to have an answer and will=20 be struggling with this question as my wife and I will soon have our=20 first child. A second question arises out of this as well. If we take the view that=20 public schools are not teaching the values we want to inculcate in our=20 children, if we see the values of the world crumbling and the system=20 falling apart, is the best solution to withdraw as Christians? Here I=20 feel the answer is much clearer. We are to be salt and light, and we do=20 not do that by retreating (I use the word reluctantly, as I don't like=20 all the connotations it has) into our homes. If the world is in decay,=20 how much more do we as believers need to be in the midst of it=20 proclaiming the Truth. I am encouraged by Lori's testimony of active=20 involvement in their public schools, providing the needed input and=20 providing the strong family environment to back up and guide their=20 children. This would seem to me crucial no matter what schooling path=20 one takes. I think, finally, there is one significant difference between debates=20 surrounding home-church and debates surrounding home-school. This=20 difference is in the scriptural background. It can be argued from=20 scripture that the institutional church is not a prescribed or even ideal= =20 form. I don't think the scripture speaks so directly to issues of=20 schooling, at least not as they concern us in the late 20th century. =20 Certainly it speaks about training up a child in the way he or she should= =20 go, but that can and should be done regardless of the schooling choice=20 one makes. I have not reached a full resolution on this question myself. My wife=20 and I tend to lean opposite directions and I will likely struggle more=20 with the issue as my children reach that age. But I wanted to share=20 those questions that trouble me most about the home-school movement. Andrew Carmichael Arizona State University ******************** From: "DAN TROTTER" To: Andrew.Carmichael@asu.edu, hcdl@shore.net Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 12:50:19 EST Subject: Re: Home Schooling & House Church Several have expressed the opinion that home-schooling is improper=20 withdrawal from occupying the earth till He comes. I wonder: does=20 one teach your child how to beware of snakes by throwing him into a=20 snake pit? Does one try to help rid the world of the evil effects of=20 snakes by throwing the kid into the pit, and asking him to convert=20 the snakes? This whole argument reminds me of the perennial teenage=20 Christian argument: well, if Christians don't date this drug- besotted, hormone-ridden derelict and get him saved, he'll go to=20 hell, so I better date him and be "salt and light" in his life. =20 Anybody that accepts that kind of thinking from a teenage daughter is=20 in grave need of psychiatric counsel. If one is worried that one's child will not have enough contact with=20 the "world" if he is home-schooled, I ask: do you really think it=20 today's culture, with all of its TV, magazines, public libraries,=20 newspapers, etc. devoted to the "world's" point of view, that your=20 child will be deprived of an opportunity to get to know the world? Counting homework, after school activities, visits with unsaved=20 friends met at public schools, classwork, etc., I would invite anyone=20 to count the hours the world has your child, compared to the hours=20 Christians have with them. Do you really think you will inculcate a=20 Christian world-view in you child by sending them to a public school? There are a lot of people taking awful big risks with their own fresh=20 and blood by placing them in the American school system as it is=20 constituted today. There is no direct Scriptural warrant, of course,=20 against taking that risk, but do you really think its smart? Dan ********************************************************************** trotter@coker.edu Dr. Dan L. Trotter (803) 383-8110 (w) Department of Business Administration=20 (803) 383-8048 (work fax) Coker College (803) 432-2546 (home) Hartsville, SC 29550 ********************************************************************** ******************** From: "DAN TROTTER" To: trd@petsparc.mc.duke.edu (Tim DeGrado), hcdl@shore.net Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 14:08:16 EST Subject: Re: Home Schooling & House Church > Date sent: Wed, 01 May 1996 13:02:26 -0400 (EDT) > From: trd@petsparc.mc.duke.edu (Tim DeGrado) > Subject: Re: Home Schooling & House Church > To: hcdl@shore.net > Send reply to: hcdl@shore.net > Dan, >=20 > How is sending a child to public school like putting him in a snake > pit? What are the risks in your mind? Can you be more specific? >=20 > Tim=20 Tim, I teach college in a sleepy, rural Southern town. Two nights ago, on=20 or about prom night, in a dispute over a girl, one local high school=20 kid pulled out a gun a blew away (i.e., murdered) his classmate. My high school alma mater now has a metal detector to detect imported=20 guns. A school board member told me that the police are called to=20 the school EVERY DAY to investigate weapons-related threats. In another small town, I used to live across from a nice woods next=20 to an elementary school. The woods are now cut down, because some=20 SECOND-GRADER was doing good business hawking dope there. My local newspaper routinely has stories of how students at my junior=20 high school alma mater knock each other up in the restrooms. Of course, all schools have the garden-variety intimidation,=20 profanity, sexual indecency, etc. Not to mention the total lack of=20 personal attention in the big schools. But the thing that always=20 bugged me about the public schools (I attended them for 12 years) is=20 that they never even once mentioned as having some sort of importance=20 the most important historical event of all time: the death and=20 resurrection of Jesus Christ. (Of course, all the failings, real and=20 imagined, of Christians were minutely chronicled). I wish you could have been there when one of my closest friends from=20 college, talked to me concerning his teen-age daughter, who was in=20 the midst of a hell-raising rebellion, and who came within an ace of=20 getting pregnant. My friend told me, "Dan, I wish I had done what=20 you did [not sending my kids to the public schools]. It was her=20 junior-high school that did her in, I could see the visible change." You don't put a seedling in the midst of a desert, or a howling=20 storm, and expect it to thrive. It will die. You put it in a=20 protective greenhouse first, and then root it, when it is mature. Of=20 course, your child will have to eventually face all the wordly crap=20 we have to face, but for crying out loud, why can't they be kids=20 while they are still young? =20 What ever happened to the innocence of youth? It has been lost for a=20 generation or so, and it will be lost by just about any Christian kid=20 in a public school.=20 Dan ********************************************************************** trotter@coker.edu Dr. Dan L. Trotter (803) 383-8110 (w) Department of Business Administration=20 (803) 383-8048 (work fax) Coker College (803) 432-2546 (home) Hartsville, SC 29550 ********************************************************************** ******************** From: Andrew.Carmichael@asu.edu Date: Wed, 01 May 1996 15:10:25 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: Home Schooling & House Church To: hcdl@shore.net > Several have expressed the opinion that home-schooling is improper=20 > withdrawal from occupying the earth till He comes. I wonder: does=20 > one teach your child how to beware of snakes by throwing him into a=20 > snake pit? Does one try to help rid the world of the evil effects of=20 > snakes by throwing the kid into the pit, and asking him to convert=20 > the snakes? This whole argument reminds me of the perennial teenage=20 > Christian argument: well, if Christians don't date this drug- > besotted, hormone-ridden derelict and get him saved, he'll go to=20 > hell, so I better date him and be "salt and light" in his life. =20 > Anybody that accepts that kind of thinking from a teenage daughter is=20 > in grave need of psychiatric counsel. Your response indicates a perception that there is no longer any hope for= =20 public schools. Perhaps you are right. I prefer to be a bit more=20 optimistic, and am thankful for those Christians, particularly teachers,=20 who continue to carry out their mission in the midst of such darkness. =20 As for whether one sends one's children into the "snake pit" again I=20 guess it's partly a matter of perception, but also I am reminded that=20 Christ himself sent us out as sheep among wolves. I don't recall him=20 specifying an age limit to this command. As for connecting it with your example, I think the correlation is=20 forced. Certainly I would not allow my daughter to date the type of=20 person you described, but I would not want to see us as Christians cut=20 off contact with such types either. We want to raise our children in a=20 comfortable, safe sanctuary. That's all well and good and fits well with= =20 the American middle-class mentality, but I see nothing in the Bible that=20 guarantees us such a right. We Americans often claim things as our right= =20 that may not be our Christian right at all. Christ mingled with the type= =20 of people the average church-goer in this country goes out of his way to=20 avoid. Our churches have become refuges from the world, but in the=20 process we have shut the world out. I merely wonder whether withdrawing=20 our children from public education is not another similar action on our par= t. >=20 > If one is worried that one's child will not have enough contact with=20 > the "world" if he is home-schooled, I ask: do you really think it=20 > today's culture, with all of its TV, magazines, public libraries,=20 > newspapers, etc. devoted to the "world's" point of view, that your=20 > child will be deprived of an opportunity to get to know the world? This is not the kind of contact of which I speak. Certainly, such=20 influences are out there and difficult (though not impossible) to filter=20 and screen. What I fear is children who have grown up relating only to=20 others who are "like" them, from a similar socio-economic background,=20 raised in a similar protective home-school environment. While such=20 relationships are by no means wrong, I want my children to have exposre=20 to those with different perspectives, confident that God will keep my=20 children in his hand, as he has promised. These kind of relationships=20 require more direct contact with the world than I see being gained by=20 keeping a child in a safe, protective home-school environment. > Counting homework, after school activities, visits with unsaved=20 > friends met at public schools, classwork, etc., I would invite anyone=20 > to count the hours the world has your child, compared to the hours=20 > Christians have with them. Do you really think you will inculcate a=20 > Christian world-view in you child by sending them to a public school? Perhaps you're right and this is impossible. I certainly hope not. =20 Lori's story suggests it can be done, but it requires lots of input and=20 effort on the parents side. If I choose the route you so adamantly=20 oppose, I hope and trust too that the Spirit will work with me in raising= =20 children to walk in the ways of God. > There are a lot of people taking awful big risks with their own fresh=20 > and blood by placing them in the American school system as it is=20 > constituted today. There is no direct Scriptural warrant, of course,=20 > against taking that risk, but do you really think its smart? I don't know if it's "smart," but if I feel that God wants my children to= =20 carry the light to the harsh secular world, I hope I will respond in=20 obedience to him and not to my own parental desire to always see my=20 children safe and secure. I hope too, that the two need not be in=20 opposition. Another concern I have is that home-schooling would become the=20 accepted "norm" of Christian believers, such that anyone who does not=20 home school is considered some kind of less-than-ideal parent who sends=20 their children into the "snakepit." Already I sense this sometimes in my= =20 church, where many people homeschool. Your message carries a certain=20 undertone of this as well. I do not have the answer, but I don't think=20 the issue is clear cut and, lacking a biblical mandate on it, it needs to= =20 be something Christian parents decide for themselves through prayer and=20 consulting with other believers. I would regret that homeschooling=20 should become a kind of legalistic trend in the church community. Finally, and this may not reflect your situation at all, I find that all=20 of the children I know who are being homeschooled are being homeschooled=20 solely or almost exclusively by the mother. Should we choose to=20 homeschool, my wife and I hope we would be able to arrange our lives in=20 such a way that each of us would be fully active in this. Unfortunately,= =20 the way the world presently works makes this difficult, as it is hard=20 enough to live on one full-time income, but even more difficult if there=20 is no single full-time income. This would be somewhat of a different=20 area where I think Christian community can offer some postive changes,=20 but until those options are available, I am not comfortable with a=20 situation where mom does all the teaching and dad works all day. Again, I offer my thoughts as one who is grappling with this issue. I do= =20 not claim to have the final answers, but am seeking for how to best serve= =20 God in this area. ******************** From: dfoster@tdsnet.com Date: Wed, 1 May 96 19:54:36 PDT Subject: Home Schooling=20 To: hcdl@shore.net This thread has been very interesting. I am neither "pro" home=20 school or "pro" public school, that is a very personal choice that=20 each family must prayerfully consider and weigh. However, the=20 thing that has struck me (and maybe it's because I used to be a=20 teacher that it stands out)is that everyone has been putting a=20 tremendous amount of responsibility on the public schools. =20 Statements have been made that make it sound like the schools your=20 child attends and the teachers they have will determine the moral=20 and spiritual lives of your children. It is foremost the responsibility of the parents to teach their=20 child what is morally and spiritually acceptable and right. If YOU=20 train up a child in the way they should go they will not stray from=20 it. The fact that you spend quality time with your child building=20 a *relationship* with them will be the single biggest factor in how=20 they live their lives, what choices they make and most of all how=20 they "let their light shine" before men (or children as the case=20 may be). As much as it is convenient to lay the blame and=20 responsibility of a child's choices on the school, school does not=20 have that kind of power over a child if the parents are fully=20 assuming their responsibilities. As Lori stated you must have=20 conversations with your children on a daily basis. Let them know=20 that they are important and what happens to them is important to=20 you. You should also be fully aware of what is going on at their=20 school and what is being taught too. If your child sees you stand=20 up for what is right it makes it much easier for your child to=20 stand up for what is right. If you've laid a proper foundation and continually kept up=20 maitenance on the relationship you have with your children and=20 teach them what YOU want them know,your child will be as "safe" in=20 a public school as they will be in home school. Joy Foster ------------------------------------- Name: David & Joy Foster E-mail: dfoster@tdsnet.com Date: 05/01/96 Time: 19:24:10 This message was sent by Chameleon=20 ------------------------------------- ******************** Date: Wed, 01 May 1996 14:46:59 -0500 From: Arthur & Bonnie Joyce To: hcdl@shore.net Subject: Re: Home Schooling & House Church Andrew.Carmichael@asu.edu wrote: >=20 > > My biggest concern with Home Schooling is that much of the rhetoric tha= t I > > have heard in support of it is along the lines of withdrawing from the = world > > out of fear; fear of the contamination of our children from evil, secul= ar > > ideas. Andrew, We have five children. Our older two (twins, now age 27 and parents=20 themselves) went to public and Christian schools in various places we=20 lived. Our younger three (15, twins age 11) are being schooled at home.=20 There are many factors to weigh, and I do not judge anyone for making=20 choices differing from mine.=20 There are probably as many reasons for home schooling as there are=20 families involved. Fear is definitely one of them, but it can be a=20 healthy fear or an unhealthy one. One type of homeschooler goes to=20 extremes and insists on being with the children 24 hours a day, even=20 going so far as to sit in the yard with them when neighbor children are=20 there playing. (Popular h.s. speaker Jonathan Lindvall, who began his=20 career life as a public school teacher, pretty well represents this=20 view.) One group in our area won't even let their children associate=20 with Christian children when they visit a local church. BTW, this group=20 is the only "home church" that I know of in our area and it is VERY=20 CLOSED. They wear headcovering, keep their children away from others,=20 and have told interested people that their group is about as large as=20 they can handle at present. They do associate with the rest of the=20 homeschoolers, though, and are generally pleasant to talk to. They don't=20 seem to feel superior to us, and we have been able to maintain=20 friendships at some level since the homechurching began. I am not in a house church, but am open to the concept, and have enjoyed=20 this list very much. I was very relieved to know that this local group I=20 have described is not typical. (Also for the record, I do not have a=20 problem with people who feel they should wear headcovering. A percentage=20 of homeschoolers do, but it is not large, or anywhere near a majority.) =20 > I don't think the scripture speaks so directly to issues of > schooling, at least not as they concern us in the late 20th century. > Certainly it speaks about training up a child in the way he or she should > go, but that can and should be done regardless of the schooling choice > one makes. I agree that parents and the church as a whole are responsible for the=20 training of children in godliness. I think that the issue for me and my=20 husband personally is, "How can we BEST educate our children in a=20 Christian worldview?" Certainly example is most important, and godly=20 teaching of Scripture and character in the home and church are =20 essential. I think we all agree on that. The differences appear when we=20 speak of the accumulation of skills and knowledge usually associated=20 with formal schooling. Can any area of study be taught without reference=20 to the teacher's own life and values, and are children mature enough to=20 discern these? How far should Christian parents go in delegating this=20 responsibility and to whom? Children who spend most of their waking=20 hours with a teacher or teachers whose own worldview and moral life are=20 unknown to the parent could certainly be led astray, in my opinion. In=20 fact, in our area ("Bible-Belt") where most are at least nominally=20 Christian, even the Christian teachers do not show a lot of discernment=20 in their teaching of "PC doctrine" to our kids.=20 Again, don't get me wrong. I have nothing but admiration for Christian=20 teachers who get out there and make a difference. But I'm not ready to=20 turn my children over to teachers whose agenda I know nothing about.=20 Yes, you can counteract some of the teaching at home, but it's a harder=20 battle each year. We prefer to just do it ourselves, or at least know=20 what our kids are being exposed to. I've seen too many Christian kids=20 shipwrecked by public schools to be less than cautious. OTOH, I do feel that it is too easy for homeschooled children to be too=20 sheltered, so we make an effort to help them understand their world as=20 it is, and try to provide for "cross-cultural" experience as we feel=20 they are able to handle it. For example, we study books written from a=20 wide range of presuppositions, but we are always there to talk about=20 them.=20 >=20 > I have not reached a full resolution on this question myself. My wife > and I tend to lean opposite directions and I will likely struggle more > with the issue as my children reach that age. But I wanted to share > those questions that trouble me most about the home-school movement. Sorry to be so wordy, Andrew. God will lead you to the right decisions=20 for your family. If anyone would like to discuss this privately, I'd be=20 willing to correspond.=20 Bonnie --=20 Arthur & Bonnie Joyce ajoyce@tricon.net =20 "I am not bound to win, but I am bound to be true. I am not bound to succeed, but I am bound to live up to what light I have" =8B A. Lincoln ******************** From: Neil Condra To: "'hcdl@shore.net'" Subject: RE: Home Schooling & House Church Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 22:02:12 -0500 My daughter, now a home schooler in high school, has been in almost =3D every possible schooling situation including 3 public schools, 3 private = =3D christian schools, and home school for the past 3 years or so. We've =3D had good and bad experiences in the public and private schools, and I'd =3D say that the choice to send a child to one of these is VERY dependent =3D upon the schools, the teachers, etc. Although some people do not have =3D much of a choice, especially single parents, it is never an easy choice =3D to do homeschooling. The primary benefits, which are real, are realized = =3D primarily by the child- the cost to the parent is significant. Public schools today have a very difficult time overcoming the "system", = =3D which does indeed tend to be godless or worse in spite of the best =3D efforts of many fine teachers. The safety concerns are also very real =3D in many if not most American public schools, and it would indeed be =3D irresponsible for parents to put their kids in SOME schools, even if it =3D is the socially acceptable thing to do! I also agree with Dan Trotter =3D in recognizing that elementary school kids should not be expected to =3D "face the real world". They are simply not equipped under the best of =3D circumstances to face difficult issues until sometime around high =3D school, depending on the child and their training. My wife never seriously considered home schooling, but somehow became =3D convinced that she should do it for my daughter's sake. (This was =3D largely because she became somewhat involved with the public schooling =3D issues, textbook selection, etc., and began to understand just how =3D serious the problems in our public schools really have become. In just =3D the two decades since we were in public schools they have changed =3D DRAMATICALLY. I'd encourage anyone that isn't up to date on their =3D status to investigate it before assuming it is the same as what you =3D experienced!) Our experience with home schooling has been excellent. We have enough =3D friends and neighbors doing it that there is a great support system, =3D both for the teacher and the child. Although my wife does virtually all = =3D of the teaching, I do get involved from time to time, and will likely =3D increase my involvement as math and science become more involved (as I'm = =3D more inclinded to these subjects than my wife). I thought my wife and daughter would kill each other in the first few =3D weeks of home schooling, but it has instead turned into a real blessing. = =3D Their relationship has been strengthened immensely. In short, I'd recommend anyone seriously consider home schooling. I'd =3D also recommend you listen to Greg Harris on this subject (or ANY subject = =3D for that matter!). Regards, Neil ******************** Date: 02 May 96 10:27:47 EDT From: "Garner B. Bradley" <102454.1517@compuserve.com> To: hcdl Subject: Home Schooling Hal Miller wrote: "Could you please post a summary of your own thinkin' on home schooling and home churching? For myself, I've been surprised to find that these currents haven't interacted more than they have. And I'd like to know whether my experience is just too limited or whether other people have noticed the similarities and wondered at the lack of cross-interest." I've attached a file that describes our thinking on home schooling. One of the ways I think home schooling is similar to "home churching" is= that they both are about resuming responsibilities that Christians ought to embr= ace, rather than shirk. Burt Bradley=20 ******************** From: Andrew.Carmichael@asu.edu Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 15:39:52 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: Home Schooling & House Church To: hcdl@shore.net > The government school system in the United States is effectively a Masoni= c=20 > School system teaching the religion of antichrist: Self-Esteem, Sorcery, = and=20 > Tower of Babel Visions of Global Unity. Many would level the same charges against the government as a whole and=20 use it as grounds to ignore the laws of the country. There's a group in=20 Montana doing so right now, but I won't be joining them in my lifetime. =20 Despite our misgivings about our government, we must grapple with Paul's=20 statement that "the authorities that exist have been established by God,"= =20 and "everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities." We=20 stray a bit here from the issue of home-schooling, for as has been duly=20 pointed out, there is no legal ground not to home-school. But your=20 assertion concerning what type of system it is could easily lead into=20 muddy waters. Andrew Carmichael Andrew.Carmichael@asu.edu ******************** From: FViola3891@aol.com Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 19:01:08 -0400 To: hcdl@shore.net Subject: Home Schooling: A Teacher Questions... I am just beginning to read through the threads about H.S. As a teacher in the _public_ school system (please don't throw stones -- it has its value and is no doubt a front-line evangelistic mission field, literally), I have some questions about how you folks home school. I reall= y want to be able to put my finger on the pulse of this movement -- from a _functional_ standpoint rather than a theoretical, theological, or philosophical one (in other words, the questions are of the _No-Quoter Styl= e_ strand). 1) how do you actually do this? Can someone share your daily schedule? Ho= w much actual time a day is the child engaged in learning? 2) how on earth do you find the time to do this along with the other domest= ic duties that one needs to tend to? 3) how on earth do you find the time to do #2 _and_ research all of the various subjects that are required for the child to master in order to be college-bound? Best, -Frank ******************** Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 21:16:25 -0700 From: Don Soegaard To: hcdl@shore.net Subject: Re: Home Schooling & House Church FViola3891@aol.com wrote: >=20 > > > >Home schooling is legal in the state of Washington, USA. My wife, Kim, i= s > >very > >diligent in averaging about three or four hours a day with our three old= er > >children. (We have four: 3, 7, 9, 11). >=20 > Please explain how she does it... home schooling 4 kids blows my mind. H= ow > does she deal with discipline, time management, curriculum, etc? >=20 > -Frank People do do it. The statistics I have seen indicate that private=20 schoolers outdo public schoolers -- at about half the cost, AND, home=20 schoolers outdo all of them. Next time I stumble across some of the=20 stats, I will provide some source documentation on this. However, to each his own. For those who choose to home school,=20 fantastic. I have three children who are adults -- two slipped through=20 the cracks in regard to education because I was not aware of the changes=20 which had occured in Public Schools until after the fact. =09We have a young one who is finishing the 4th grade -- in public=20 school. I would prefer she was home schooled. But then, I was also=20 active in the Parental Choice in Education Amendment campaign in=20 California several years ago -- which lost. =09I am going to make this post short at this point, but the issue=20 of public schools vs home schooling cannot be reduced to a simple=20 question of "how do those who do it do it?" They do, because they feel=20 the must. And, I pray for God's grace and blessing on their efforts. And, I pray for those Public School teachers who are trying to make a=20 difference and not just knuckle under to the CTA or the NEA and all the=20 rest of the teacher's unions which (from my understanding and=20 experience) work to pervert. In Christ, Don ******************** Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 10:31:45 -0400 From: Hal Miller To: hcdl@shore.net Subject: Re: Home Schooling & House Church Dear HCDL, It's pretty obvious from the traffic on this thread the last few days that we end up with passionate committments about public schooling and home schooling (and the difficult decision processes those choices reflect). In our situation in Salem, Dianne and I decided to home school our kids; other families in our network of home churches have chosen to send their kids to private schools and still others to public schools. SCC is pretty much a microcosm of this whole discussion. Over the years, it has surprised me that home schoolers I have met haven't immediately flocked to home churches when they discovered that they existed. I have been so surprised because, for me, the affinities are so clear: - home church people have made a time-consuming choice that church doesn't work very well when it is institutionalized; haven't home school people done something similar? - home church people are willing to take responsibillity for their discipleship and obedience together; aren't home school people doing the same thing? -home church people have accepted that they might be misunderstood and marginalized because they made a non-mainstream choice; doesn't home school require a similar acceptance? Similarly, many of the problems the home school people face are similar for home church people, so I would think that working to resolve the problems in one area would help you resolve them in the other. For instance: - home church faces the problem, again and again, of having an appropriate attitude toward the basillica church -- we run grave spiritual risks of being condemnatory and smug about it and need to come to a godly appreciation of the struggles of people within the basillica and thei= r issues without giving up on what God has called us to -- don't home school people face the same spiritual challenge in their assessment of the public schools? - home church has an ongoing challenge to avoid becoming ingrown and insular; doesn't home school have to address the same problem? - home church has given up all the advantages that mall churches have (e.g., their ability to create boutique groups for every possible sociological slice, whether by age or marital status, or whatever) for connecting people in specific circumstances; don't home school* people have to face the same problem in giving their kids peer interaction? These are just samples of the similarities. I think home churches and home schoolers have much to learn from each other -- we have similar goals and face similar challenges. And I would think that home schoolers would find home church a perfect match. But they don't. At least they don't always or often. Perhaps it's because some parts of the home school movement are highly doctrinaire and that's a poor fit with most home churches. Perhaps a sizeable number of home school people end up doing it because of control issues and home churches don't match well with people with control issues. For our home church, however, the match has been a good one. At least I think it has. Among us, two families with kids home school, one does not. We all, however, take an activist approach to raising our kids (that's one agreement I've seen on this thread, too). The activist approach to all our kids has given our home church much of its current flavor and, I think, reflects some of the debt all of us in our home church have to home schooling. Regards, Hal (progn (defvar *.signature* (list =09"Hal" "Miller" =09"TASC" =09"55 Walkers Brook Dr., Reading, MA 01867" =09"(617) 942-2000, X2958" =09"Fax: (617) 942-7100" =09"hmiller@tasc.com")) (pop *.signature*)) ******************** From: Dianne Miller To: "'hcdl@shore.net'" Subject: teaching at home--moderately llong Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 14:43:15 -0400 Dear hcdl, The thread of homeschooling is interesting to me because Hal and I do=20 teach our kids at home. The diversity in the homeschool crowd is as great= =20 as in the home church crowd. In New England, teaching at home is still=20 pretty unusual, so many people do respect us for doing it. We have adjusted our life, so we could teach our kids who are almost 6=20 and 8. I am a visiting nurse and work weekends, and Hal works during the= =20 week. He is very involved in teaching after he gets home from work. Each day I write on a blackboard what each kid needs to accomplish=20 during the day. Our eight year old is quite self directed and will do each= =20 task and gladly mark it off when she is done. Accademically I am very=20 pleased with what each has done--our 8 year old is doing division in math,= =20 and our 6 year old is reading on a first or second grade level. Teaching at= =20 home is much more efficient because you can focus on one kid at a time. Spiritually I see good things also. It takes a lot of work to teach=20 children how to be kind and gentle to one another. I am thankful I can be= =20 there to give them direction and discipline when needed. I am also=20 convinced that if I sent my 8 year old to a public or private school she=20 would be diagnosed as ADD. What it means for Hal and I is the need for a= =20 lot of energy and patience focused on her. Our lives are very full of activities and people, and I never worry=20 about them getting enough social contact. There are activities such as=20 brownies, the YMCA, the library, violin lessons, and not to mention home= =20 church which provides friends that are their age and also adults that are= =20 their friends. Hal and I had kids late in life, and I am thankful we have the ability to= =20 be with our kids and enjoy them as much as we have so far. Dianne Miller ******************** From: WJacobsen@aol.com Date: Sat, 4 May 1996 00:11:49 -0400 To: hcdl@shore.net Subject: Re: Home Schooling I've watched with interest the discussion on Home Schooling and House Churches since part of what I do now is consult with public school district= s regarding religious concerns in education and help mediate conflicts that threaten to tear apart entire communities. To date I've not met one school district administrator who desires to destroy the values of students who ha= ve religious faith. =20 That's not to say that there isn't much curriculum that advances a liberal social agenda, but when it is pointed out to them, most want to take the steps necessary to remedy the problem and the issues parents have with it. By and large they value parents of faith and children from their homes because they are generally well-behaved, involved and high achievers. Though our culture has lots its 'Christian' underpinnings in the last 30 years, it was not to demean Christianity, just not force it on anyone else. I realize the opposite got communicated in many places and am encouraged that many school districts are now trying to reverse that trend. I'm thankful that we have the choice-public, private or home, and each shou= ld do as God gives them faith to do. What good does it do us to judge others'= s choices? I've enjoyed those who've just told their stories without forcing their choice on anyone else. They've been enlightening and uplifting. =20 What it has to do with house churches is probably just a curiosity, since someone's passion for one isn't necessarily a passion for the other. Nor should it be. =20 Wayne Jacobsen BodyLife Resources Visalia, CA 209-635-8565 wjacobse@aol.com eof -- last updated 5/16/96